Alexis
Hi, everyone. Welcome to Talk Tech with Data Dave. I am Alexis, your host of this podcast, along with my dear friend, as you know him, Data Dave. Hey, Dave, how are you today?
Data Dave
I’m very well, Alexis. How are you?
Alexis
I am so excited for the question today because it has to do with not only my current life, but also my previous life. And we have a super awesome guest to join us to help answer the question. So, I’ll let you introduce him, Dave.
Data Dave
Okay, so we are joined today by Richard Carey, who is the director of BCamp. If you don’t know B Camp, it’s a modern take on education for emerging technologies. So, Richard, before we ask the question, just give us two minutes on BCamp and the modern take on education.
Richard Carey
Happy to be here. Thanks for having me.
BCamp- I like to describe it as if it’s sort of like an internship and a hackathon had a baby, and then that’s what you would get out of BCamp. It’s got a lot of elements of an internship because we work with companies to identify, like, relevant projects that they’re working on. We’re trying to be on the very cutting edge of what’s going on in AI and blockchain and other emerging technologies by working with companies that are actually spending money on these projects. They give us projects, and then the actual operation of it flows a little bit more like a hackathon, mainly because of the motivation. You know, just participating in hackathons is so fun.
And I found that it can be a phenomenal learning experience because you’re just in it. You sort of like get in this flow of trying to compete, trying to win, working with a team. And I wanted to capture some of that energy from a hackathon and include it in this learning experience to really get people to the edge of their own capabilities.
Data Dave
Excellent. That’s fabulous. I like the idea. I also like the energy of a hackathon and the just sort of go-get-it approach. So ,thank you for being here, and we’re excited to get into the question.
Alexis
Yes, I, like I said, previous life and current life. The listeners know this. My previous life was in higher education, and that’s where this links up for me. And so here we go. Here is the question for today.
Does higher education as it sits currently, prepare its students, prepare our future candidates appropriately for the workforce, as it currently states, for the modern-day workforce, if you will. And if we don’t think so, which I’m going to go ahead and go out on the limb that maybe, Richard, you don’t think it’s 100% there based on your company, but okay, we’ll get there. If not, what are some suggestions that we as obviously individuals that have so much to say about things and everything as we have a podcast suggest to improve? So, does higher education prepare its candidates appropriately for the modern-day workforce? That’s the long and short of the question.
Data Dave
So, Richard, I’m going to let you have a first stab at this one.
Richard Carey
I think, in general, my answer is higher education could do a better job of preparing people for the workforce. This is very nuanced, though. And you know, I have my degrees and feel like it was a valuable experience.
And at the same time, I think the structure of the economy is really changing quite rapidly.
You know, I don’t know the root cause of it, but I do feel like higher education sort of has a monopoly on education to some degree. You pretty much have to get a college degree. And I think when these things happen, it can lead to some stagnation in innovation. Now there obviously – there’s competition between different universities, but the economy is changing so much that it feels like we need to start thinking about completely different approaches to this.
So, that’s a long-winded way to say, I do think it could be better. I think there’s a lot of exploration to do here.
Alexis
Well, my short answer, I have a little bit of a longer answer too, but my short answer is yes for some and no for some. I used to say that everyone should go to college because it’s an experience that you need to be able to make it in the workforce. You need to be able to know how to get along with people. You need to be able to learn how to learn, and that’s what you do at college.
And I’ve more recently adapted to the idea that there are some people who need that experience and need to learn how to learn. And there are some people who are going to do so much better by taking an alternate path, by learning in a different way than in a classic classroom higher education format. And so, my feelings on it are that, that yes, it can be good for many things, and yes, it can be very not so good for many things and for many people and for many different types of brains. So, I also have a little bit of a cop-out answer. Yeah, so that’s my short answer. I got a long one too, Dave.
Data Dave
I’m going to take a slightly different spin and say what I experience from the current workforce, and then, we can talk about whether higher education actually prepares people. I agree with Alexis that there is an experiential basis for higher education in terms of the transition from, I’m going to say, the high school world to the adult world that people have to go through. How they get through it? Another comment.
Some people enlist in the army, some people go to college. There’s a lot of ways of going through that transition. But there’s an experiential period that people need to go through. So, I agree with that. Some schools are better than others, to your point, Richard.
And some candidates that we see have been taught how to think. And I don’t like that. I like creative thinkers. So, often with a traditional degree course, I get people that think in a rigorous, in the box kind of structure.
And I look for people that are fundamentally problem solvers that don’t have the constraints of the box. And sometimes I find traditional higher education sometimes teaches them how to be in the box.
Another comment is work ethic. Sometimes, do the modern candidates come in with the right work ethic? And that’s another question for that educational basis.
The other one is a really tough one that I’ve struggled with for many years, which is. And it comes back to that work ethic, and thinking outside the box is: how can you teach people failure without destroying them? Because often it’s their failures, the failure states, that when you ask somebody to talk about their defining moments, it’s often their failures, not their successes, that define them.
So, if I critique the candidate base with that set, does higher education try and solve those problems or is it trying to teach skills rather than thinking?
Richard Carey
There were several questions there. Can I comment on the work ethic?
Because this is a big piece of Bcamp, and when I think of work ethic, I think of motivation.
Data Dave
Yep.
Richard Carey
And I do think that schools can kill motivation. Quick side story. One of the reasons I started BCamp is because I’m thinking about the education for my own kids. My oldest is a 10 year old, and we’ve already had our kids in five different schools and ended up homeschooling.
And so we’ve seen a lot of different models and we’ve been pretty experimental. Sorry, kids, hopefully we didn’t screw up your entire education. But there’s very different models, and the motivation is a really important piece for younger kids. And I think for older kids, I do think that the traditional education system has a tendency to kill motivation. And it’s sort of like designed to be unnatural to prepare people for a world where you work in a factory all day or, you know, or you sit in a cubicle all day, which is pretty unnatural.
And so, one of the reasons I like the hackathon is because it brings in some more natural motivations. And I think about this actually a little bit of going back to maybe a more natural state of existence and getting into a place where you can build and work without forcing yourself to something all day.
And again, there’s some balance here. I don’t know how far you can go with this, but again, getting the competitive element back into it, it becomes natural when you’re in a hackathon to just give it everything you’ve got and go for it. I’m thinking about ways of, like, how do we change the work environment to be more natural so that it’s a lot easier for people to come in and just go for it? And again, that’s maybe a separate question, but I think about that from both sides. The work ethic of the people coming out.
And because we have so much flexibility now, there’s just more flexibility, and the work environment is changing. Can we structure that so that it’s just a lot more natural for people to be creative and build?
Alexis
I think the thing that I’m hearing you say, Richard, is the difference between learning and regurgitating and learning and doing so. With the hackathon, with this idea of an internship, you’re learning and then you’re applying that in a very specific way. You’re doing what you’re learning. That moment when you can take what you’ve learned and apply it is, I truly believe, the difference between a quality education and a missed opportunity.
Data Dave
So, that’s a good point. I got a couple of comments. We talked about motivation. I think that’s really important with the motivation of people and the motivation of people to act in a team and act together. So, the team spirit, I think, is important. I’d like to bring up attention span. Has the attention span of students changed, and how does that impact motivation? I’d also like to bring up another point, which is, and it goes back to something I said before around teaching people how to think and how to problem solve, which I think is incredibly important.
With the availability of AI now and with the availability of a plethora of information, if we just teach people information in college so they can regurgitate it, are we really doing them any favors?
Because I can get information at the drop of a hat- at the fingertips. I don’t have to teach people the syntax of a language. I can get that all over the place. What I really want is people who can apply that. So, with those three points, what is happening to education? How do we expect people to learn, and what are we expecting of people?
Richard Carey
Yeah, I have a bunch of thoughts about this. Maybe unsurprisingly, but with attention span, I think about this a little bit different, maybe, in terms of like how easy it is to get a reward.
And I do think, for sure, that people expect sort of quick rewards now more than before. I’m thinking about a student I had, one of my very first participants in BCamp actually went through, and it was hard. I purposefully keep it pretty ambiguous. I don’t tell people exactly what to do. It’s like, here’s a project, here’s a challenge, go build. And it was really hard. But then after that and actually months later he came back to me and was like, “Hey, one of the things that I learned in this is that I can do hard things.”
And so, I almost think about this and that I sort of have to push through this uncomfortableness of ambiguity or having a problem without solving it instantly. And he’s like, “That expanded my ability to approach that.” And so I almost think of it from an emotional being able to push through uncomfortable feelings and having the confidence and the hope that you’re going to be able to come to a solution if you work at it long enough.
I absolutely think this is different in this generation.
Data Dave
So have we lost some of that, which is the comfort zone thing, which is people want to be in their comfort zone and what you’re saying is living through the uncomfort zone and coming out with a positive outcome. I actually did that with my dog yesterday. I’ve just got a recent puppy and yesterday we took the puppy in the pool for the first time. She was very uncomfortable to start with, but she lived through that uncomfortable comfort and was actually quite happy about it. Quite pleased with herself afterwards of being able to now swim. I don’t think she’ll swim today, but she will in the future. But it was that uncomfort zone where we pushed her into a little bit of uncomfortable. But she came out very happy about it.
Richard Carey
I think that’s a perfect example because when I think of attention span, a lot of the kids today can spend hours and hours focusing on Minecraft.
Data Dave
Oh yeah, absolutely.
Richard Carey
And honestly, when I play Minecraft, I actually am like, I can’t do it. Actually, I don’t have the attention span to play Minecraft because I’m getting distracted. But they can put a lot of attention and a lot of focus into building these things. And so, I think about it more in terms of getting outside of your comfort zone and being able to push through that.
Data Dave
And I think you’re onto something because I’ve heard the attention span criticism. When I hear that from people, I always answer in a very similar way, which is, I look at the kids today, certainly my kids today, and their attention span is great. There’s nothing wrong with their attention span. It hasn’t got shorter. I don’t think it’s necessarily changed from an attention span perspective. Now what they pay attention to has changed.
And I think that goes back to your motivation and reward comment, which is, how do we lead people through that uncomfort zone when the uncomfort zone is real rather than imagined? In Minecraft, you are learning in a very, very safe, controlled environment. If I’m in the real world, it’s not as safe an environment. Am I prepared to take bigger steps?
Richard Carey
That’s exactly right. And this is interesting. You know, I was just thinking of an analogy. Like, school is more or less a game. We are creating this environment to help people prepare to live in the real world. And it’s more or less a game. And I do think that we could probably make the game better. Just thinking about my own experience coming out of school, I’m like, I didn’t feel that prepared to really excel in the real world.
And so, I don’t know exactly how you bridge that gap better, but I think it’s a lot easier now to give people the actual experience or a very simulated experience to what the real world is like.
Let them push through that discomfort, and then I think people will feel more comfortable moving into the real world.
Alexis
Can I go back to a question that Dave asked earlier? I just really want to hear your input on this, Richard. Dave had said earlier, like, how do we let people fail without breaking them? And I would love to hear- you said you homeschool your kids. You said that, obviously, your students fail. They have to. There’s no way that they don’t because, I mean, that’s how we learn. I’d love to hear what your thoughts are on that.
Richard Carey
Yeah. This is also very interesting and something that has really changed in my own perspective of my kids. There’s so many different directions I could take this. But I think at the end of the day, what is failing? I challenge the definition of what failure is.
And I think ultimately it’s like, “I feel uncomfortable.” I think it often comes down to fear, and so, I just think the definition of failure: 1. Could be defined wrong. Like if your definition of success is wrong, then your definition of failure is going to be wrong as well. And so again, that’s a little bit maybe esoteric. But what I think ultimately, often the fear is, is fear of ambiguity or lack of confidence. I think it kind of goes back to this idea of being able to have confidence that if you go through some pain that you’re going to come to something useful.
Because failure, like if you’re trying to achieve a result and you learn some stuff and you progress towards it, often people call that failure, but it’s really not.
Anyway, those are some thoughts.
Data Dave
I agree with where you’re going with that, which is – let’s redefine failure and redefine success.
Alexis
Good, because I was going to ask you the same question. So please keep going.
Data Dave
If we look at that and say it’s not really failure, it’s really disappointment with not reaching the expected goal, then often the benefit from failure is learning how to step back, reapply, redefine the goal and take a different route. So, it’s that reapplication, and that is the learning, implement the lesson from perceived failure. That’s often the case. It’s teaching that, to a certain extent, is teaching that ability to step back, reconsider, reapply, reapproach a problem, or change the definition of the problem.
Richard Carey
Yep.
Data Dave
As an individual, and say, “Yeah, that’s not soul crushing, that is just a reapplication of my wits into the world, shall we say?” I’ve got a nice quote for you. So, my daughter, she’s very successful, 27, she’s got a psychology degree. Her comment when she was about 25, 26, was, “This adulting stuff, it’s hard, I don’t want to do it anymore.” Two years later, she’s happy, she’s doing great. But that’s the sort of not an uncommon sentiment, I think now.
Richard Carey
Yeah, this idea of like redefining success, I think plays out in a lot of different areas because ultimately, I think if you have a good definition of success and you’re going in that direction, it’s almost impossible to fail. And we could dig into that. But where I want to take this is- this goes back to sort of school as a game that we’ve designed.
And a grade is a good example of this. Success is getting a grade from one teacher who’s evaluating your work or based on some standardized system.
And this just doesn’t reflect reality very much. So, I think ways that this can change is getting more exposure to the work that you do. If you write an essay, put it up on a blog and see who reads it, you know, or like, even if it’s just within your class, let your class respond to it or make it more realistic. Try to model what’s actually going to work in the real world. And you know, there are a lot of situations where one person gets to decide your success or failure, but not all situations, and especially if you’re trying to create a product or something. It’s going to be how your audience responds to this or how people actually use it. And I think we can create better ways to grade people that mirror what success actually looks like.
Alexis
I feel like we didn’t really answer the question, but had really good conversations. So, that makes me quite happy. And that’s all I need for today.
So, I really appreciate being able to get on here and just like, talk through these things that are very applicable, I know, to us as D3Clarity, who are hiring people who are coming into the modern work force. I’m sure, Richard, this conversation is more applicable to you as somebody who is running an alternative adult education learning area. I love it, but this has been a great conversation. I love hearing people’s opinions on this because they’re all a little bit different, and sometimes they’re all a little bit the same.
Data Dave
It is an interesting conversation. I’m not sure we’ve reached any conclusions, but we explored the subject a little bit.
Richard Carey
I think this is a hard question. If it was an easy question, it would already be solved. But thank you so much for having me on.
Data Dave
Thank you.
Richard Carey
Really fun, really interesting conversation.
Alexis
Before we go, I’m super into reminding people about all kinds of things, so first things first, BCamp has its own podcast, Richard, so please go check it out. Where can they find that?
Richard Carey
It’s on Substack. We can share the link.
Alexis
Fabulous. We’ll drop that in the description as well as in our LinkedIn post if you’re watching us on LinkedIn for our listeners out there, if you have a question for Data Dave, please email it to us at talktech@d3clarity.com. I forgot to say that at the top of the episode, which I almost, almost never forget, so darn. But I’ll say it now. Email us your questions. We love having listener questions on the podcast. And then finally, we really, really appreciate you being with us here today, Richard. This has been awesome.
Data Dave
Yes, thank you very much.
Richard Carey
My pleasure.
